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Post by pumpfake on Jan 27, 2019 14:08:00 GMT -5
rswan, I know you it's in the context of a compliment for hard play etc, but you are missing the mark in a big way to say that, after Batemon, Quintana, and Johansson our our roster is undersized DII talent. We actually have decent size and guys like Scott and Williams who are undersized for their positions are D1 players. Period. The Lions rank 130 in KenPom out of 350 some odd teams. Even accounting for the limitations of ranking systems, we are, without question, a top 175 team so there are a lot of teams below us. Many of those teams in D1 ball who would be thrilled to have those guys because they are tough and they are winners. When I was at LMU, we had a number of guys who were prototypes size-wise who were horrible. Given who LMU is in where we sit in the recruiting pecking order the players we get are often going to have some limitations (skill, size, quickness, attitude, athleticism). Dunlap's LA area recruits (McClendon, Williams, Scott, Gipson, Quintana) all had certain limitations that allowed us to get them. The common denominator was that they were winners in high school and/or high character guys. If McClendon was a knock-down shooter, he'd be in the Pac 12. If Scott was 6;8", he'd be in the Pac 12. If Williams, were 6'8" and was quicker, he'd be a force in the WCC. I will take the undersized winner over the "right-sized" project. Shifting gears, I completely agree that our lack of 3 point shooters kills us. It seems every team we play shoots better than us from beyond the arc. When Dunlap took over for Max, he said he was going to make shooting a priority. Remember Matt Hayes (now there's a DII guy) was supposed to be the answer, then Joshua Speirs (another guy who belonged in DII) was supposed to be the answer and now Johansson is the guy but the rest of his game is limited (can't drive, lacks quickness, etc.). We really need a shooter who can stretch the D AND another point guard.
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Post by bdwillie32 on Jan 27, 2019 14:29:39 GMT -5
Uh oh...The resident basketball expert has checked in again, hence there dare be any reference to Cam Allens' anemic 20% 3 point shooting percentage this season. Don't worry Bdawg, I won't be scaring off all the high majors he is choosing from. Proclamations of "kid bashing" is a cheap ploy to get your point across, which actually for once had some objective merit. Not a lot, but some. Citing the reality of shooting percentages, irrespective of how they are derived, is not kid bashing, it is citing the reality that in the day of "Moneyball analytics" (eference all the titles in Golden State if you struggle with that concept), you cannot win at this level without any shooters. If anyone on this board looks at this composition of this basketball team and really believes it is chock full of knock down shooters, who can't hit a bull in the a** with an ironing board due to confidence issues, I have no retort. Alionwinter is spot on about all he said. And I will note, Batemon is not a shooter, he is a scorer. Big difference. Allen, was not a shooter, he was a scorer. Quintana is a decent shooter, as is Johannson, who as Bdawg accurately opined ENTIRELY needs stuff run for him to get shots, or as Alionwinter so aptly noted, requires good paint penetration and ball movement (i.e. rotating passing) to get clean looks. After that we have a bunch of undersized DII talent, who god bless them are great kids, play hard, guard the ball and seemingly go to class and stay out of trouble. That is my "expert" assessment of this edition, which really looks no different than the last 5 year's edition. It is OK? Not for me to say, I am not the AD.... I think bdawg was absolutely spot on. I have actually been to LMU practices and seen some of the kids individual skill development sessions. These kids shoot the cover off the ball in there workouts and practice. You can see the natural shooting strokes from player like Johannson, Gipson, and actually if you know anything about LA basketball you would know Bell came in with the reputation around the city as a good stretch 4 who can really shoot it from deep. But you wouldn’t know that bc these kids are constantly stripped of confidence when they’re told to pass up open 3s to get the ball inside first or work the clock til the very last second. And assuming someone is his father is no reason to talk down on the Allen kid. If you actually took the time to communicate with the players then you would know he’s great person off the court and has actually been contacted by 10+ D1 programs already (Wichita State being one of them), with more to come when recruiting picks up after season. Other coaches see that there aren’t many players in the country with his natural creativity off the dribble and have a value for it. Believe it or not but I’ve heard it from a staff member myself that this team is missing him right now.
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Post by bdawg on Jan 27, 2019 15:45:55 GMT -5
Rswan's obsession with belittling Allen, (who's no longer relevant here or on the roster) is kinda creepy for me. I have no idea of your identity, but you're starting to sound like a scorned female! Whatever your identity or gender, the young man has moved on...so should you Ma'am or Sir! Back to matters at hand, Pumpfake makes an analogy I am intimately aware of. For years, I've travelled nationally and written D1 scouting reports for low. mid and high major schools. Yes, I assessed and and evaluated what level these basketball prospects were! So, since colleges , of all levels, subscribed to my company's scouting reports and PAID me for my services...(so, thank you rswan)..."I actually could be considered a resident basketball expert". The reality is, MOST COLLEGE PLAYERS, WHATEVER LEVEL, ARE ROLE PLAYERS! Look at the HIGH major rosters on the Power 5's...how many are elite, NBA quality kids and how many are INTERCHANGEABLE role players. NBA kids go and play in the NBA...they don't stick around college and play for free. If the LMU players are DII caliber players, tell me...what level are the players on the other thirteen (13) D1 teams that LMU has beaten??? If LMU has a DII roster, guess you can you say the same of the other 160+ lower rated RPI schools and the other 23-24 conferences rated BELOW the WCC? It's all a matter of opinion. I just advised a DII kid to go JUCO and transfer UP to D1...he did so...now he's averaging a double double in his first year as a D1 player! Same kid had a DII teammate that could literally come and start at every WCC team except Gonzaga! Likewise, the overrated high and mid kids are also part of the transfer "down" pool of some 700+ players a year. Most HM players often develop early and dominate early and gain their stock and ratings early. I always assess skill level, fluidity and basketball IQ when I project a ceiling for a player.
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Post by lionlife on Jan 28, 2019 16:53:14 GMT -5
bdawg, those are nice credentials, and yes, there are many factors that go into shooting (confidence, identity as shooter or non-shooter, skill, arm strength, footwork, vision, form, etc etc), but to say that %s are meaningless is taking it too far, and I think you know that. I don't even disagree with the point that the sub pattern is a confidence killer, because players should focus on doing good things rather than avoiding doing bad things, but even with an empowering coach, I'm not sure where the shooting comes from. We have several talented guys, though not NCAA tournament level talent. The bigger problem is the fit of the players. Without spot up shooters, how are we supposed to clear space for Batemon to probe/drive, Eli to post, Markusson to operate, Douglass to slash? Yes, you can subvert bad shooting with secondary playmaking, but as we saw in those early season wins where we'd have 7 assists on the night, we're not really set up to have guys create shots for each other aside from Batemon. I worry about the Markusson/Eli/Douglass fit going forward; it'll take some creative coaching to get the best out of those three talented players.
Anyway, nice win, great comeback, go Lions.
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Post by bdawg on Jan 28, 2019 23:47:31 GMT -5
lionlife...Good analysis! I was never stating that %'s are totally meaningless, just that they are often skewed by "many" factors. Opportunity and freedom to shoot are prevailing criteria that boost % pts. LMU does not seem to have an offensive identity to hang it's hat on. You will never know just how well the LMU kids shoot until the restrictions are removed. There are some shooters on that roster that are lights out in practices and workouts. The culture must be implemented to transition that to the game. I see an offensive identity issue that derives from the fact that you have a "drain the shot clock" system...but at the same time you discourage and punish even some open 3 point shooting and creating off the dribble. Thus, you often have shot clock violations and rushed, low % shots at the end of the shot clock (therefore decreasing 3 pt%'s and becoming the lowest scoring team in the WCC). That dynamic can be very discouraging to the players and fans.
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dj44
Junior Member
Posts: 15
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Post by dj44 on Jan 30, 2019 15:43:21 GMT -5
lionlife...Good analysis! I was never stating that %'s are totally meaningless, just that they are often skewed by "many" factors. Opportunity and freedom to shoot are prevailing criteria that boost % pts. LMU does not seem to have an offensive identity to hang it's hat on. You will never know just how well the LMU kids shoot until the restrictions are removed. There are some shooters on that roster that are lights out in practices and workouts. The culture must be implemented to transition that to the game. I see an offensive identity issue that derives from the fact that you have a "drain the shot clock" system...but at the same time you discourage and punish even some open 3 point shooting and creating off the dribble. Thus, you often have shot clock violations and rushed, low % shots at the end of the shot clock (therefore decreasing 3 pt%'s and becoming the lowest scoring team in the WCC). That dynamic can be very discouraging to the players and fans. 100% agree
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Post by hootevers on Jan 30, 2019 17:35:25 GMT -5
who is discouraged and/or punished for shooting 3balls? Joe? No. James? No. Eric? No. Dameane? No. Bell? No. The others-Jeff, Zafir, Eli, Donald aren’t 3 Point Shooters. Folks Bagged on this Issue yet Where was the Mention of 9-19 v SCU?
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Post by bdawg on Jan 31, 2019 0:11:34 GMT -5
Common sense should dictate that ANY basketball team, at ANY level that runs the shot clock down (and flirts with shot clock violations on a consistent basis) are NOT prioritizing taking the best selection of shots or 3 pt opportunities...for % or volume! Common sense should then dictates that the LMU offensive philosophy is NOT to seek the BEST, most high % 3 pt shooting opportunity incorporating picks or double picks, pick and pops, skip passes and/or drive and kicks. Instead, the current pattern is to seek the best available (LATE in the shot clock) 3 pt opportunity...when #5 is unable to create or drop an entry pass to the post or if a 3,4 or 5 does not get a short corner opportunity. In fact, I would use my 7-3 post and his ability to see the floor to create some higher% opportunities...but won't elaborate. I study personnel and offenses intently...successful players are put into situations and schemes to be successful by allowing them to be comfortable in who they are as a player! When a coach recruits his personnel, there should also be a set role that kid is recruited to fill. If I scout and recruit a kid, my job is to develop that particular skill set that I need executed within my scheme. I am HUGE on development and roles!
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Post by hootevers on Jan 31, 2019 2:14:39 GMT -5
you are the one who stated players were discouraged/punished for 3 ball attempts. I replied with names of specific players who have not been discouraged or punished and names of players who don’t really have a 3Ball skill set. you replied with ‘common sense’ yada yada which has nothing to do with your original discouraged/punished indictment in veiled fashion of dunlap. again, defend your general statement by naming names. I don’t really care about how you assess talent, recruiting philosophy or role development.
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Post by bdwillie32 on Jan 31, 2019 4:39:16 GMT -5
you are the one who stated players were discouraged/punished for 3 ball attempts. I replied with names of specific players who have not been discouraged or punished and names of players who don’t really have a 3Ball skill set. you replied with ‘common sense’ yada yada which has nothing to do with your original discouraged/punished indictment in veiled fashion of dunlap. again, defend your general statement by naming names. I don’t really care about how you assess talent, recruiting philosophy or role development. I’ve seen all players you listed as not being discouraged to shoot the ball being scolded for taking a shot that appeared to everyone to be a decent shot except for Dunlap. I’ve particularly noticed Bell being refrained from taking 3s and it’s obvious by the amount of open 3s he turns down. And I’ve watched Gipson dating back to high school at Fairfax and sat in on couple workouts. That kid should not be on the list of players that aren’t 3pt shooters..he has a more natural shooting stroke than Douglas. His talent has been continually disrespected in this program. No guard on the roster other than Batemon is more overal talented
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Post by nbdlion22 on Jan 31, 2019 19:00:56 GMT -5
you are the one who stated players were discouraged/punished for 3 ball attempts. I replied with names of specific players who have not been discouraged or punished and names of players who don’t really have a 3Ball skill set. you replied with ‘common sense’ yada yada which has nothing to do with your original discouraged/punished indictment in veiled fashion of dunlap. again, defend your general statement by naming names. I don’t really care about how you assess talent, recruiting philosophy or role development. I’ve seen all players you listed as not being discouraged to shoot the ball being scolded for taking a shot that appeared to everyone to be a decent shot except for Dunlap. I’ve particularly noticed Bell being refrained from taking 3s and it’s obvious by the amount of open 3s he turns down. And I’ve watched Gipson dating back to high school at Fairfax and sat in on couple workouts. That kid should not be on the list of players that aren’t 3pt shooters..he has a more natural shooting stroke than Douglas. His talent has been continually disrespected in this program. No guard on the roster other than Batemon is more overal talented agreed 100% Donald was and still is a stud. But Dunlap has this psychotic delusional view of what certain types of players SHOULD be doing. Not what they COULD be doing and what kind of POTENTIAL these players have. Instead he manages his players based on who follows his directions the best NOT whats best for the team to win. Although Quintana has improved tremendously this year, IMHO he is not a D1 starter. He is undersized, not lengthy, not an explosive athlete, and a streaky shooter at best. Yet he is our starting guard. Dunlap has given Quintana a huge leash this year to play and make mistakes. On the contrary Donald has NEVER been given the runway that Quintana has been given. Donald can shoot, drive, finish through contact, and is a solid athlete. I honestly dont understand what legitimate coach wouldn't but his most TALENTED squad on the court. I guess Dunlap is the only one.
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