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Post by lmu2008 on Feb 17, 2023 14:20:16 GMT -5
There was absolutely no morale victories in tonight’s drubbing, but the team, each player and coach, and the fan base need to look past tonight and focus on the advancement made by the program this year. Not only do we have 2 league wins against Top 15 programs, we also have a good shot at a 20 win season, aconvincing win over Nevada (20-6 and third in the MWC), wins over ACC foe Wake Forest and Big East foe Georgetown, and a nice victory on Grand Canyon’s home court. This is not a resume that’ll stir the hearts of the NCAA tournament selection committee, but it’s waaay better than anything we’ve seen in a long, long time. Sure, we’d all like to see a tournament team NOW, but these things take time. At this point we still have the inside lane for a 4th place finish. The WCC has grown into a tough BB conference. Fourth place would be a good achievement. I take exception to slb’s criticism of AD Pintens. He’s doing a good job. He’s brought new life into what was a moribund program - not just in basketball, but across the university’s athletic programs. There’s a whole lot going on behind the scenes that you don’t see. They’re slowly getting staff into place, working the sponsorships and alumni donations, and building solid programs. We’ve already seen some notable improvements (locker room, conference rooms, visitor reception areas, etc.) and there are more on the way. Pintens Athletic Program is extending its tentacles across the LMU community in ways that far exceed anything seen in Husak’s tenure. Give them some time! I also disagree with slb’s criticism of Coach Stan walking around campus selling the program. At any university the head coach is the face of the program. Players come and go, but the program takes on the face and demeanor of the head coach. Sure, various minions in the Athletic Department can spend all day running around campus hawking baubles and pizzas, but it won’t have any where near the impact of the head coach spending an hour or two marketing the team. The whole PR thing is Coach Stan’s strength and he deserves an A+ for his efforts in this area. I think Coach Stan has done an excellent job of getting buy in from his players and getting them to play significantly above their weight class. They play hard, real hard; but the individual talent levels are well below Gonzaga, St Mary’s, Santa Clara, San Francisco and perhaps another team or two. Yet he has them in the pole position for 4th place. He and the team deserve a lot of credit for this achievement. As to the future? Well, as Coach Stan says, he’s building a program to a new standard. Next year will be a whole new experience. We lose Cam Shelton. That’s a massive loss and Coach needs to pull a rabbit or two out of his hat. To date, his recruiting efforts have had middling results. Cam is his only real win so far. This year Issanza and Graham have played commendably. Beyond those individuals it’s been pretty close to a wasteland of mediocrity. With the new transfer rules in effect today, coaches have a harder time developing a team over time. One can no longer predict what a team will have in the future based on what they have now. Only time will tell if Coach Stan can crack the recruiting code. While at this point in time, I give Coach a C- for his recruiting to date, I give him a flat out Fail for his Xs and Os and his in-game strategy adjustments. If he can’t figure out how to do it, he needs to hire an assistant who can. It’s going to be a long time before he can recruit the five best players in the country and simply tell them, “Go have fun.” He needs to recruit the right skills and then develop some schemes using those skills that can win games against tough opponents. So far, he’s shown me nothing in this department … and that concerns me. At this point all we can do is root for the team, hope they can have a good tournament, and then wait to see what develops for next year. Agree on most of the points here. I want to emphasize what a good job I think Pintens is doing with the program, including the hiring of CSJ. We are breaking fundraising records in a down economy. We all agree our marketing is more visible than ever before. Even LMU student engagement is up (from near zero, but still up). CSJ is getting good results with the talent he has, and there's no doubt the team plays hard. The problem is maximum effort will only take you so far when your players don't have the same god-given abilities as our opponents. Last night it was objectively clear how much taller, longer and more athletic the Zags are than us. I agree that CSJ and the staff must recruit better players if we're ever going to consistently compete with the big programs. But I do believe that our staff will improve in this area. As we all know, just two players can change the fate of a program! That being said, where I disagree with you is the "fail" grade for CSJs Xs and Os. Could the offensive scheme use improvement so that we're not taking so many "hail mary" shots with 2 seconds left on the shot clock? OF COURSE. But there is only so much CSJ can do with the gulf in talent/size/athleticism that was on display last night. Greg Popovich could have coached us last night and we still would have been slaughtered. Gonzaga was in the mood. Besides, you don't beat BYU, St Mary's, Gonzaga, WF, Nevada etc in a single season by being a "fail" at Xs and Os given our current rosters' limitations. The real question is CSJs 4th season next year. Can we continue the upward program trend? We've relied on the experience of our upperclassmen to get us this far (our team is mostly Jrs and Srs), so can CSJ hit the transfer portal hard to replace Keli, Ahrens and Cam's 40 points per game? Will we have more consistency? Only time will tell, but despite last night I'm still buying stock in Pintens, CSJ and the Lions for the rest of 22-23 and in the coming seasons.
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Post by lmu2008 on Feb 17, 2023 14:25:56 GMT -5
Okay a few observations from someone who attended last nights massacre: 1) credit Gonzaga. That was the best they looked all year. Looked like a legit title contender. Strawther if he could play like that consistently is a lottery pick. 2) nice crowd but holy heck, the administration needs to be embarrassed for how they handle the crowd management getting into the gym. They were not prepared at all for a large crowd which is a bit laughable considering it was Gonzaga. Took fans 20 minutes to get into the arena from about 15 feet away. Had 1-2 lines getting in, with dudes now using a wand to check for safety, and half of the guys were chatting it up with patrons, slowing the lines down even more. I know we never get fans, but should have been way better planned than to have a huge moshpit of fans storming to get in. Could have been a safety issue for sure. 3) isn’t this just the lion way? One step forward, two steps back? As a fan for 30 years, I just cannot get over excited about this program, EVER. You win a big game and then get flat out embarrassed on national tv. As good as the win at Spokane was, this was almost as deflating. We were the bud of Gonzaga’s joke to the nation last night. Down 40 at halftime? I have seen a ton of lmu basketball and even in the worst years, I cannot remember that. The team was not prepared. Few ran circles around Stan. Put length and more men on Cam and Stan looked lost. It’s been said here before that Stan is a great salesman and he truly is. As far as X’s and O’s Though, much to be desired and learned. 4) I wish Lion's fans especially young Lion's fans knew our history better. Anthony Ireland, literally one of the best players in program history, and maybe tops outside of the golden era, was honored and about 15 people gave a standing ovation to him.. all on the season ticket holder side. Imo that whole place, or at least all LMU fans, should have been giving a standing ovation to Ireland. If not for him, then who? It was a bit eye opening that so many fans could care less that one of the best players ever here was being honored and the students didnt know him from the janitor. 5) Our administration needs to take a trip down to Grand Canyon University and spend a gameday there. You want to create a home court advantage? Watch how their leadership and student groups create that atmosphere. They have student leaders, organized cheers, coreographed dances. Its the best in the nation in terms of student crowds. If you cant make it down to Grand Canyon, go to CBU for a mini version of it. Or go to Gonzaga which I am sure they have, and have learned little. Hyped music before the game, but the students really didnt know what to do other than bob their heads. Hire student group leaders, practice some dances/chants, dress up in wild outfits... create a HOME COURT ADVANTAGE. Pointless to have thousands of students there if they are just "watching" the game. They need to be LOUD but I dont blame them. They are given zero direcetion. Truly a bad night for the lions. Anytime there is a good crowd, it’s very often a big let down. You think the first time attendees last night are excited about the next game? Nope. You can’t lose by 50 and expect the fringe fans to attend consistently. It’s been an issue for years upon years. Consistent teams make for consistent large crowds. We have neither right now. The fact the student section is split in two halves is ridiculous. When there was student chanting in the 1st half, it was often totally out of sync. They should be grouped together in the middle of the court at the expense of some season ticket holders who will have to move over.
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Post by lionlife on Feb 17, 2023 14:32:47 GMT -5
As I reflect more on this game, I'm reminded of similar "humiliation" games over the years (at Florida State in 2011-12 probably ended our chances that season, and Kelly Olynyk's last game at LMU was even worse). They happen. They suck, but they happen. And even as we improve, they'll continue to happen. Hell, Gonzaga themselves got absolutely shellacked in the tournament final a few years ago (down 19 within the first 10 or so minutes, down 20 most of the second half); do we think, two years later, that's had any tangible impact on their program? Of course they'd be better off if they won, but the manner of defeat probably didn't matter. Timme didn't immediately leave the program for the NBA, and Chet Holmgren didn't decommit after that. We will survive this, even from a PR/recruiting perspective. The biggest impact will be on the first-time attendees.
As for Stan, in addition to the emotions, I'd argue his style of play leads to big runs. We're always looking for big defensive plays to get us out in transition - when we gamble and lose, there's not enough backend structure to still get a stop. Big Rick can clean up a lot, but it was too much for him yesterday when he's having to make decisions on how to deal with a driving ballhandler with a big man rolling down the other side of the paint, wide open.
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Post by lmu2008 on Feb 17, 2023 14:35:27 GMT -5
hi everybody class of 2010 grad here. long time follower of the forum, but felt yesterday was sort of a catalyst for me to jump in and join the discussion. I have been watching and attending lmu games over the past 12-13 years and wanted to share my two cents on yesterday's game. the good 1 - i dont remember ever seeing a crowd or gameday environment like that for a televised LMU game (especially in the first half as people started to leave the game later in the 2nd half). That was really good to see 2- it seems like coach stan and the new ad pintens seem to have a good idea of how to politic and navigate the college basketball "business" . IMHO alot of the media narrative regarding the LMU turnaround, the program thats being "built" by coach stan etc that was reported on by the CBS sports network were all scripts and stories that were pitched, packaged, and sold by our athletic department to the network. Thinking back on the max good and dunlap days, this was a big missing piece for our basketball program. It looks like our new leaders in the athletic department understand the importance of program image and perception by the media, general public, and fans 3- Coach stan is young, energetic, and extremely passionate and I respect and appreciate that effort hes put in fundraising, marketing and trying to build up this program the bad 1 - that was a flat out poor performance by our guys. extremely careless with the ball, very little movement on offense outside of the basic pick & roll weve seen all year, and way too much reliance on cam to make something happen at the end of the shotclock 2 - this is in no way an attack on our players who I have no doubt have been giving it their all for our program but the talent disparity yesterday was REALLY obvious. We looked liked a non D1 team out there. 3 - we need some leadership in our student/player partnerships, campus life, etc. LMU has no culture behind our athletics program and we really need someone to come in and create some hype and tradition around our program. Our student section was loud yesterday but really nothing compared to some of the programs mentioned above me. Home court advantage is real and I dont think we really have much of that in our favor yet. the ugly 1 - we lost by 43 points. a terrible loss without a doubt. From a program reputation perspective I think the damage was twice as bad. A D1 program that is in the top half of their conference can NOT lose by this big of a margin to a league rival. Even if the rival is a perennial tourney team 2- the inconssitency in our level of play this year i think has a direct correlation to our young coach's fiery and at times incredibly emotional leadership style. Players follow their coach whether they like it or not. And our players have been incredibly inconsistent. A top program does not go hot and cold and cold back to hot like the lions do. 3- we had 19 turnovers yesterday, our turnover issues have not improved at all in the past 3 years under coach stan. top programs don't turn the ball over like we do. Yesterday was an incredibly frustrating game but I continue to support the lions and hopefully this was just a hiccup on the path back to success. According to ESPN, in Stan's 3 years we have gone from 16 (horrible) to 13.3 to 13 TOs a game this season. 13 is still not good but there has been some improvement. Compare that to Dunlap's last year where we averaged 14 a game paired with a painfully slow style of offense. Edit: In a similar statistic on the NCAA website, we are ranked 302 out of 352 D1 schools in turnover margin. So even though our own turnovers are improving, our turnovers forced per game needs improvement.
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Post by LIONS90045 on Feb 17, 2023 16:57:15 GMT -5
Not much good to say about this game. I will say that Gonzaga would have beaten almost any opponent with the shooting prowess they showed Thursday. Unfortunately, the game was a set back in terms of inspiring student support - they did come but left sorely disappointed (and early). The game did highlight the talent differential between the Zags and the Lions. The Zags have young 5-* players on the bench! No comparison outside of Cam and perhaps Keli. Given that disparity in talent, it is a credit to Coach Johnson that we could pull off an upset against the Zags. And over St. Mary’s for that matter. I was mildly impressed with the game appearance of James Nobles; he handled himself well in his few minutes and shows promise for next season as (likely) a Red shirt sophomore. As others noted, our future is in our hands to capture the #4 slot. Neither of our remaining games will be easy and who knows which Lions team will show up on any given night.
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Post by cs17 on Feb 17, 2023 18:30:22 GMT -5
+1 in support of CSJ, Pintens and his department's efforts.
Obviously, basketball-wise last night was an absolute flop. Huge disappointment. We can all agree on that.
But just five years ago, Gersten was a mausoleum. No offense to Dr. Husak, but he ran a country-club style "status quo" department. Everyone in it was comfortable being "fine". CMD couldn't and didn't ever want to hold a conversation with fans.
Pintens takes over, Stan comes in. Fast forward a few years to last night. Would you have EVER imagined five years ago, having students lined up FIVE HOURS before gametime just to hopefully snag a ticket? Usually, we are overrun with Gonzaga fans. Last night was not even imaginable five years ago.
It was unimaginable to beat St. Marys, BYU and end the Zags home win streak all in the same season.
Does coach have x's and o's issues? Of course. Is he awful, is he just "a facade"? No way.
Craig and his staff, especially Assoc AD James Batley who Craig hired from Oregon, have put forth nothing short of a phenomenal effort in reaching out to potential donors, and reinvigorating those on the fence or who previously were never involved. Coach Stan is not afraid to get his hands dirty and reach out to potential fans/donors and alumni. The result? Next year is the first year LMU will actually have guaranteed NLI money packages for their players, and that is a MUST nowadays.
And even after last night's debacle, we still have a decent chance at finishing fourth and getting TWO byes in the WCC Tournament. I can't recall ever having that before in the "modern era", maybe someone can enlighten me.
Finally, the students showed up and were disappointed. But the activation of the student base for not only the St. Mary's game but last night, is proof that a solid basketball team can be successful on the bluff. As we were walking towards the back gates and on to campus last night, a group of students walking out passed us by and one said "you guys going to the game? tickets are all out, we didn't even get in". I told them we had ours already, but man, that is the first time anything remotely close to that has ever happened in the last few decades.
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Post by fryer4three on Feb 17, 2023 19:27:28 GMT -5
First off, comparing any AD to Husak would be like using a TV dinner to compare a restaurant to: the standard cannot be that low. Husak-- nice guy.. better off as a high school athletic director. I dont think anything the current administration is doing is earth shattering, but the bar had been set so low by Bill and his friends who he kept employed, that anything is an improvement, I guess..
The in game atmosphere and the student led group/involvement needs to improve still. We still have one of the least impactful student crowds in the WCC and they have no leadership, no congruency, no togetherness. It is one thing to show up, which the students will only do if the team consistently puts a decent product on the floor--- but it is another thing to be impactful. Cheers, choreographed dances, crazy outfits, student led fan groups, pre-game parties, in game entertainment, etc.
Watch Grand Canyon and compare it to any student group we have had in the last 30 years. And this is just prior to the game even starting.. :
You have to invest in in game atmosphere and be intentional about every detail from 1 hour before the game to the final timeout. It has to be an event that this social media crazed age-group will not want to miss. The administration now, and especially prior to now, has not bought into that.
The crowd last night was good-- but let's be honest with ourselves--- a true sell out is when every seat in the gym is sold or taken... not when 1/4 of the gym is completely blocked off. Not so much a criticism, but I do chuckle at "sell out" when you have taken away 1/4 of the gym to put up banners above a whole upper section.
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Post by LIONS90045 on Feb 17, 2023 19:39:26 GMT -5
fryer - I got worn out just watching that video! 😜 As I recall we used to have LMU flags and the flag bearers would lead the team out of the locker room at the start of the game and after half time. Easy to do?
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Post by cs17 on Feb 17, 2023 19:54:23 GMT -5
First off, comparing any AD to Husak would be like using a TV dinner to compare a restaurant to: the standard cannot be that low. Husak-- nice guy.. better off as a high school athletic director. I dont think anything the current administration is doing is earth shattering, but the bar had been set so low by Bill and his friends who he kept employed, that anything is an improvement, I guess.. The in game atmosphere and the student led group/involvement needs to improve still. We still have one of the least impactful student crowds in the WCC and they have no leadership, no congruency, no togetherness. It is one thing to show up, which the students will only do if the team consistently puts a decent product on the floor--- but it is another thing to be impactful. Cheers, choreographed dances, crazy outfits, student led fan groups, pre-game parties, in game entertainment, etc. Watch Grand Canyon and compare it to any student group we have had in the last 30 years. And this is just prior to the game even starting.. : You have to invest in in game atmosphere and be intentional about every detail from 1 hour before the game to the final timeout. It has to be an event that this social media crazed age-group will not want to miss. The administration now, and especially prior to now, has not bought into that. The crowd last night was good-- but let's be honest with ourselves--- a true sell out is when every seat in the gym is sold or taken... not when 1/4 of the gym is completely blocked off. Not so much a criticism, but I do chuckle at "sell out" when you have taken away 1/4 of the gym to put up banners above a whole upper section. First off, comparing any gym to GCU’s manufactured excitement is like trying to say “be like Disneyland”. Not even all that for-profit pageantry got them a win at home against our squad. The next step for us is to hire students (even just a few) to get the student sections going. As simple as “defense” and “let’s go lions” chants. Fryer4three, you are so quick to bury our own efforts, but lift up literally anyone else. So what if 1/4 of the gym wasn’t “available”?That’s still 75%, and better than 90% of any LMU game in recent memory. Of course things can always improve, but things ARE improving and that’s what matters.
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Post by fryer4three on Feb 17, 2023 22:53:42 GMT -5
If well thought out and invested entertainment means "maneufactured" and produces the home court advantage that GCU has, sign me the hell up. Not disneyland at all. Its called "in game entertanment". It takes a concerted effort. Our admin has the marketing piece down, social media piece.. stan is a great salesperson. But this admin, nor the last, understand the entertainment piece. These kids again want to be at an EVENT. They could give two sh*ts about the basketball. They are there to get their next instagram video. You attract kids by making it an event that is greater than Thirsty Thursday at Cinco's or Sharkeez.
When you go to a game there let me know. Better than the 100-500 students that you can barely hear at LMU games. How many were there last night? I could barely hear them and dont tell me the score dictated that. The crowd noise from students should start pre-game.
Rick Pitino had this to say about GCU: “In college basketball, my 40-plus years, (that) was the toughest crowd I’ve ever faced,” Pitino said. “Awesome. When you have this type of enthusiasm, it made us a much better team tonight. Whether we go to Duke, Kentucky, nothing was as tough as that environment tonight.”
Hopefully thats the next new wave of thinking Pintens embraces. He hasn't so far.
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Post by lmu2008 on Feb 19, 2023 13:18:49 GMT -5
If well thought out and invested entertainment means "maneufactured" and produces the home court advantage that GCU has, sign me the hell up. Not disneyland at all. Its called "in game entertanment". It takes a concerted effort. Our admin has the marketing piece down, social media piece.. stan is a great salesperson. But this admin, nor the last, understand the entertainment piece. These kids again want to be at an EVENT. They could give two sh*ts about the basketball. They are there to get their next instagram video. You attract kids by making it an event that is greater than Thirsty Thursday at Cinco's or Sharkeez. When you go to a game there let me know. Better than the 100-500 students that you can barely hear at LMU games. How many were there last night? I could barely hear them and dont tell me the score dictated that. The crowd noise from students should start pre-game. Rick Pitino had this to say about GCU: “In college basketball, my 40-plus years, (that) was the toughest crowd I’ve ever faced,” Pitino said. “Awesome. When you have this type of enthusiasm, it made us a much better team tonight. Whether we go to Duke, Kentucky, nothing was as tough as that environment tonight.” Hopefully thats the next new wave of thinking Pintens embraces. He hasn't so far. Why doesn't USC, UCLA, or any Pac-12 school have a basketball atmosphere close to GCU? Answer- because it's not easy to build that in a student body that has a thousand other things on their mind. Gonzaga and BYU have strong home court advantages, and they should be who we aim to emulate. GCU to my knowledge is the only for-profit university in the NCAA. Perhaps that gives them some extra advantage over every other school. I heard that some GCU classes provide extra credit to students attending games, but that could be just a rumor.
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